Crisosto Apache

This interview was recorded on June 28, 2014 at Crisosto Apache’s kitchen table on the traditional lands of the Núu-agha-tʉvʉ-pʉ̱ (Ute), Tséstho’e (Cheyenne), and hinono’eino’ biito’owu’ (Arapaho) peoples in Denver, CO.

June 28, 2014

Interviewer:  Rae Garringer. Transcriptionist: Montanna Mills

Shí‘taí k’an dé, nił’daagut’é.  Shí Crisosto Apache húún’zhyé’.  Shi Mashgalénde áan’sht’ííd.

So, what I basically said is: Hello, my name is Crisosto Apache, and I'm Mescalero Apache. I'm, 42, and I currently live in Denver. But I'm originally from the Mescalero Apache Reservation in New Mexico, and I'm getting ready to move to an area near Albuquerque.

I was born and raised in the Mescalero Apache Reservation. I originally grew up with my father, who was Diné, Navajo. So, when I was really young, I remember staying with him a little bit, and he was from To'hajiilee, that's formerly known as Cañoncito, outside of Albuquerque. So, after a while, he ended up taking me back to my mom's, in Mescalero, so I grew up on the Mescalero Apache Reservation. 

On the reservation, we sort of moved around a little bit, because there's a lot of - it's really vast, and huge. The area that I grew up in is between seven and eight thousand feet, so it's up in the mountains. And that's pretty much what I remember growing up, is like wherever I went there's forest around, and we used to run around and play in the forest. But growing up on the reservation I think is… it's a very interesting experience, and I think it's taken me a long time to sort of realize the significance of being Native American, being two-spirit, and also having an education, which is really, kind of unique to my family. 

It was difficult, growing up, because my mom had separated with my father and then remarried to my step-father, who's currently still in the house. It was hard growing up. You know, we were sort of a poor family. My parents, meaning my mom and my step-father, the highest end-level of education they had was tenth grade. They both dropped out. My step-father had some experience working trades, so whatever experience he could get in, as a tradesman, is what he did. They both have a lot of experience in silversmith, so they make jewelry on the side to supplement the income. My mother worked as a dietician when I was a lot younger. But then, because we moved around a lot, ended up having to take care of us.

In our family, because - my older brother is from a different parent. And then there's me and my little brother, we're from my mom and my father, and then there's two step-sisters who are from my stepfather's previous marriage, and then there's my two sisters - from their marriage now.

So there's - we kind of grew up off and on with a huge family -  So there was a lot of us, so it was kind of interesting to sort of just, move around on the reservation. And I'm sure that - was really hard, to raise that many kids, you know, on the level of education that he had, and for whatever jobs they could get. At the time, I didn't understand that, but now that I'm older, and now that I have my nephews, I start to realize what it takes to raise a family, and to be financially responsible for them, to be emotionally responsible for them. You know, all of these things that parents go through, I've sort of been thrown into that within under a year. But yeah we grew up with very little money, but we've managed. 

I always knew, my whole life, that I was gay. From a very young age. I was very curious about it, but I didn't - I didn't understand it. And in the back of my mind I've always wondered if people were all like that. You know, so, all the friends that I had growing up in school, in the back of my mind I've always wanted to ask them if they felt the same way, but I was always afraid, because I started to see that there was this sort of behavior that was happening where guys and girls got together, and that was dating. But I never did see girls and girls or guys and guys. And I didn't see that - in any of the relationships that I observed on the reservation or off the reservation, in the schools or not in the schools. 

However, you know, while I was growing up, I did remember seeing, people that - some guys that would dress up as women on my reservation. And I knew who they were, you know, and the community knew who they were. In fact, me and my mom, we talk about that all the time - from her experience too, growing up on the reservation, she knows some people that were men that dressed as women, and that, you know, that's the way they presented themselves. 

There's a heavy debate, I think, in Native American communities about how much of that is real, and how much of that is cultural, and how much of that is part of our culture, or how much of that is just, you know... So I think from all the research that I've done in terms of two-spirit people and reservation communities - and all the different elders that I've talked to who are very traditional - I've come to make the determination that, culturally, that behavior was accepted within the community because they had a function. There was a spiritual function, there was a communal function. And there's a lot of what we talk about that: we don't disown our people, we don't disown our families, and everybody has a purpose - are some of the basic teachings that we have within our culture. 

So within the culture itself, these people are given responsibilities. They might not fit the responsibilities that straight people have, such as, you know, procreation, providing for the family. But in terms of the way they operated within the community, there was a purpose for them, and in some societies and some cultures, because of how that balance is integrated within one person, a lot of these communities saw that as a gift. Because of how we describe the universe around us. There's a male universe and a female universe, and there's a sense of balance that allows it to sort of interact with each other. Our seasons are male and female. Our directions are male and female. Our environments are male and female, even to like, the rain, there's a male rain and a female rain. There's a lot of different interactions in the cosmos that determines, you know, our identity within ourselves. So, those are a lot of things that I've been taught growing up in terms of like, who I was. 

Now, growing up, however, there has been this conflict, and I've sort of inherited that a little bit in terms of Western thought and Western religion, and how much guilt and shame that was sort of pushed on a lot of people for practicing their culture, and for participating in their culture. But I think now - that is something that I see a lot of people struggle with still. You know, it's that integration of fundamental religion, and how much damage that has - that continues to do - to Native communities. And I think in terms of the work that I do, that is some of the work that I integrate into some of the teachings that I have, and some of the things that we want to educate people about. Cultural sensitivity.

So growing up, we did identify that there are people that exist within our community that are able to express themselves the way they do, and there isn't…there isn't any shame in presenting yourself that way. And I remember that a lot of the interactions that I have had with my mom - because my mom comes from a fairly traditional background - she continues to teach us that we are sort of an integrated community, and we have to accept one another for who we are. And we have to teach each other that, and we have to be there for one another.